From ‘House of Cards’ to the House of Lords and Brexit champion

“I’m a passionate European,” says Michael Dobbs. “I love Europe, I really do. I couldn’t think of anywhere better to be born, to raise children, the culture, the history, everything.”

But that view hasn’t kept the Conservative politician — far better known outside British political circles for authoring the bestselling books that spawned “House of Cards” television juggernauts on both sides of the Atlantic — from declaring his support for a Brexit from the EU.

The 67-year-old Lord Dobbs of Wylye doesn’t see it as a contradiction at all. “I’m not leaving Europe,” he says. “I want Europe to flourish and it’s not, because the institution is wrong and it’s fatally flawed.”

In an interview in his Westminster office — the same one once occupied by his former boss, Margaret Thatcher, who campaigned for EU membership in Britain’s 1975 referendum — Dobbs covered everything from the effectiveness of German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schäuble and European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker to his inspiration for Season 5.

When was the moment that you decided that you were for Brexit?

When Herr Schäuble announced before the last Greek elections that elections change nothing. I thought they were pretty awesome words. Devastating words. And I thought if that’s the case then we better get out of the system where elections mean nothing.

What is the strongest argument for Brexit?

The European Union is like the Titanic heading for the iceberg and cannot change and it will not change so in those circumstances it’s time to get off.

What is the strongest argument for remaining?

We live in uncertain times, and I feel passionately European, therefore I want an ongoing association with those people that I respect the most, but not inside the current institution.

Weakest argument for remaining?

That the future is uncertain, because the future is uncertain if we stay. There is no certainty about futures. You make your future.

Weakest argument for Brexit?

It’s an argument that I don’t hold but there are some Brexiteers who sort of hate foreigners. Well, you know, forget that. In politics, you find yourself with some uncomfortable bedfellows.

Strongest champion for remaining?

Idealists, and there are many of them who still commit themselves to the ideal of that European Union, that European Community which they believe is expressed through the European Union institutions. I was one who subscribed to that ideal. I just feel that that ideal has become a matter of deals now and not of any ideas.

Who is the weakest champion for remain?

I think probably the European President Juncker. The “Juncker mail,” somebody branded the leaflet that just went around from the government. I think he has shown a lack of sympathy and a lack of understanding for the real need for democratic accountability and that sort of goes with the job sadly in this case.

What would become of all those British MEPs if Brexit happens?

Ha! Proper jobs. In all honesty, I don’t care. They’ve had a pretty good run for their money. I get paid as a member of the House of Lords. I get paid £300 per day if I turn up, which I have to pay all of my expenses, all of my living costs, my secretarial, administrative costs. Now you know, I don’t have a lot of sympathy for the salary structures that MEPs find themselves laboring under. Let alone the expenses.

What’s the model for the relationship Britain would have with the EU if it leaves? Switzerland? Norway?

No. No. No. Britain. Switzerland, Norway, it’s totally unlike Britain. We have the fifth largest economy in the world. We have the fourth largest armed forces. We have three of the world’s top 10 universities, seven of top 10 universities in the EU. We’re not Switzerland. We’re not Norway. We will do our own deal. But of course, a deal requires two people to tango.

And you think the EU will want to tango?

Are the Germans going to stop selling us BMWs? We have a massive trade deficit with the rest of the EU. They sell to us far more than we sell to them. And I don’t see them turning around and grumbling, “No I’m not going to continue selling to the U.K. I’m going throw all of our people out of jobs because we don’t like you anymore.” No, that is silly.

What did you think of the IMF report that came out Tuesday saying Brexit will cause “global damage”?

Is this the same IMF that told us we would be destroyed if we didn’t join the euro? Oh, is that so? Or was it the IMF that told George Osborne about three years ago his austerity program was going to cause chaos? The IMF doesn’t have a very good track record on these predictions and it seems to come up with lots of grand statements that don’t include much analysis.

What’s the biggest problem with the EU?

Elitism and lack of democracy, which go side by side. Sorry, lack of democratic accountability. You go out and ask anyone here who their MEPs are, they haven’t got the slightest idea, and we cannot change our government.

Who is your MEP?

I have three. We have multi-member constituencies and I’m in the southwest. We didn’t vote for the Commission, we can’t get rid of the Commission. Can I put this one point to you that I think is pretty fundamental? Every single government that has come up for reelection has been thrown out. The electorate have said, the people have said, “This is wrong, no more of this. We want something different.”

Are you for populism?

I’m for democracy. I’m for listening to people and what it is they want. You can argue that Merkel and Cameron are still there, but actually their governments have changed. This is an astonishing record that the people are telling the elites throughout Europe, “We want no more of this.” Now I think we have to listen to those people. But the one government in Europe that’s still there, that we can’t get rid of, is the government in Brussels.

Team Dave or Team Boris?

You’re trying to get me into trouble [laughing]. I’m a foot soldier for David Cameron and a great supporter and colleague in Brexit of Boris [Johnson, mayor of London].

What do you think about how Cameron got caught up in the Panama Papers headlines?

I don’t think it’s helpful for politicians to be forced to reveal all of their financial activities to the public in the way that’s he’s done. If I were asked to do that as part of the House of Lords and it was a necessary part of my stay in the House of Lords, I would quit, not because I have anything to hide, it’s partly because I don’t want people to know how poor I am. And it’s pandering to the media and the only reason I think every editor and newspaper publisher did the same. And they’re not going to, why should I?

I want to take you away from what Lord Dobbs thinks, and bring you into your popular character Frank Underwood.

You might find me a little diffident on this because I want to keep the two parts of my life very separate. Let’s try it, but I ain’t going to promise.

There was an open convention in the last season of “House of Cards,” very similar to what we might see in July. Do you think [Republican Speaker of the House of Representatives] Paul Ryan is pulling a Claire Underwood with his “I won’t run” line?

Ha ha! Let me say this: I’m looking forward to going to Cleveland in July for the Republican National Convention, which I think it will be a historic one and a fascinating one and I will call it research.

Did you see this coming?

Yes, in the sense that there’s nothing new in politics, but it hasn’t happened for a long time. It’s really nice at my great age to have a few surprises in politics…. The great thing is that this story goes back for an eternity, you know. For me, when I was a kid and I had to read “Julius Caesar,” Shakespeare. Where did I get these ideas for wickedness from? Well, there’s the greatest guy, the most powerful man in the world, hacked, chopped, stabbed to death on the steps of his own capital by his best chums. Wonderful! And nothing changes.